Clanpolitics: What do you think?

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Kayz
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Clanpolitics: What do you think?

Post by Kayz »

Today I had a little conversation with Dario about my situation with the clan and stuff, and I wanted to know if there will be ever a forgiving for my inactivity and disappearance.
[00:01:27.80] [Kayz] i know i failed as clan member
[00:01:27.80] [Kayz] but
[00:01:27.80] [Kayz] maybe i can show
[00:01:38.48] [Kayz] in next future
[00:01:40.12] [Kayz] that i changed
[00:01:43.54] [lNNNxDario] you failed twice.
[00:01:51.06] [lNNNxDario] that is more than enough
[00:03:37.94] [Kayz] well failing is a hard word for just forgetting to tell something
[00:04:31.76] [lNNNxDario] not showing up for a very long time is evidence of not caring
[00:04:31.76] [lNNNxDario] not caring is failing
[00:04:40.26] [Kayz] not really
[00:04:44.92] [Kayz] the "not caring" thing
[00:04:53.58] [Kayz] it had another reason
[00:07:03.04] [Kayz] it's furthermore an evidence for other important things like school, family
[00:07:11.18] [lNNNxDario] you are mixing "caring about your clan membership" with "caring about the clan".
[00:07:20.88] [Kayz] not really
[00:07:32.64] [lNNNxDario] yes, really
[00:07:42.78] [lNNNxDario] I've been away from my city for months and nobody ever noticed it
[00:07:58.82] [lNNNxDario] why? because I cared enough to always make some time to visit a cyber cafe and check the forums to see how everything was going on
[00:08:10.66] [lNNNxDario] the only reason to dissapear for half a year is having been kidnapped.
[00:08:25.40] [Kayz] if you think that this is so much important
[00:08:43.94] [lNNNxDario] then find a clan that isn't this serious.
[00:09:22.74] [Kayz] you are the only one who bothers about this
[00:10:04.36] [lNNNxDario] because I am probably the only one who is willing to keep this clan at the level it was meant to be from its origins
[00:10:30.90] [Kayz] only because i took care about other things than worms
[00:11:21.22] [Kayz] another thing is that you don't know me that well and judge me because of my inactivity
[00:11:25.42] [Kayz] but for me it wasn't that important this time
[00:12:44.96] [Kayz] and in the last time i took much care about this all, not because getting back to NNN (what you might think) is my only goal, because worms is entertaining me again
[00:12:44.96] [Kayz] very much
[00:13:05.32] [lNNNxDario] well then, you should find a group that is more about that and less about this.
[00:13:22.96] [lNNNxDario] it's not that you can't be friend of nnn member if you are not a clan member.
[00:13:55.00] [lNNNxDario] but, whether people like it or not, I will stick to caring too much about this, because it's my duty to sirgorash and johnmir.
[00:15:43.62] [Kayz] so there will be never ever a chance for me, because i took care to other things two times without telling you
[00:16:03.54] [lNNNxDario] never a third chance*
[Kayz] why you said this thing with "it's my duty for sirg and johnmir"
[...]
[Dario] because it is. They didn't create the clan to have a bunch of people that don't care that much, only think it's a bit of fun and can go away everytime something more interesting in life happens.
[Kayz] could there be an argument for me that i was just 17, and had much trouble in school and didn't want to play worms and stuff
[Kayz] but i see it's senseless
[...]
[Dario] doubletime is 14, or so, but that doesn't prevent him from getting banned.
[Kayz] thx for comparing me with him
[Dario] I am comparing your argument with him, not you with him.
So I accept, that Dario takes it that serious, but I think that not all people here think like this.
I know Dario is the inofficial clan leader, but I can't take his "kidnapping is the only reason" thing serious. Do all people think like this, that I am someone who failed and who should not get allowed to ever join this clan again?
Furthermore I think Dario's point of view is much too pedantic. I know that he takes care about this clan, but I am not someone who insulted and faked around. And I don't think that he is acting in SirGorash's and Johnmir's intention to keep the clan "clean" of those people, while banning me forever.
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Zemke
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Post by Zemke »

this sounds very hard from Dario. and i have always known that Dario is a guy who always prefers the serious way to solve things whatever is it about a game or about personal things. but this was that what i have liked at him but don't you think guys that this is a way too serious?

[00:07:11.18] [lNNNxDario] you are mixing "caring about your clan membership" with "caring about the clan".
-> NNN especially Dario the unofficial Leader has kicked more or less often members, and i'm wondering because once Dario said we are a family, does family kick family members when they haven't eaten up their meal? i can't see any family when anyone is able to kick members so fastly and let them never back.

and i can't imagine that the goal from SirGorash and Johnmir is to make NNN the main thing in the members life. if the qualification to be a NNN member is to go in a cyber caf
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Post by Dario »

The clan has so many members because:
1-We've let almost anybody in for a very long time.
2-We've rarely ever kicked someone (kayz is among those few that got expelled).
Kicking members so "fastly".... right, you've no idea how hard it gets to expel someone. Just for the record during the first clan sweeping (the first time kayz got expelled) SirGorash sent one or two e-mails to each player that was endangered and only those who didn't even answer in like a month got kicked.

I don't think of myself as clan leader and I don't like being called that. I see me as a member cares a lot and is constantly pushing the rest to be better. Be realistic: most people need to be pushed a bit.

If you are going to compare the clan with a family, take this into account: you don't leave your family and never call them back, and if you never call them back then maybe you don't think of them as your family; then it's hypocritical to ask to be treated as a family member if you don't treat them as if they were your family. The clan should also be a team where everybody puts a little bit to make things better.

The sentence
the only reason to dissapear for half a year is having been kidnapped.
shouldn't be taken out of context, since by "disappear" it's referring to never saying a word about your absence, not about the absence itself. More than one member has been away for a long time and stayed as NNN members simply because they visited us every now and then, even if not playing worms they'd still come and tell us what they were doing with their lives, they proved that they cared about us and not just about their clan membership. Can't you see the difference? those NNN members showed that they considered NNN as their family, they came here, they called, and in return they were treated like family members.
Come on, there are clans out there that will kick you if you lose too many clanners, not to mention going away without ever saying you'd go away.

In addition to that, saying that I or someone else said that the main thing in the life of a clan member should be the clan is a complete exaggeration and doesn't make a good argument to back-up the "I had more important things to do" excuse of someone who didn't want to find 10 minutes every month to check what was going on in the clan he was supposed to care about.

I get some kind of "I am here because Dario kicked me out of the clan" vibrations, let me clarify that every time someone was expelled there was a poll about it.
Really, that "NNN kicks members often, specially Dario" is a misconception. Not specially me because booting requires a poll, also not really often because:

-Kilobyte (a long time ago too, when you could get booted because of a poor performance in the league, but then kilobyte got a lot better and was welcomed back)
-NormalPro (like 3-4 years ago because of shitty behaviour)
-Kayz, Haxen, Hunter, Topper and maybe someone else in the first clan sweeping.
-Then Kayz again

That's 4 or maybe 5 kicking events in 4 or 5 years?. I don't see that as often. Rafalus, Dvorkin, Libre, Optymus, Hunter, Wormsik and many others just left, they weren't kicked, they left.

Talking about polls, a long time ago, when an "nnn heads" group was formed, there was a debate about what should be the future of the clan and there was a poll more or less like this:
Poll question: what do you think would be the best choice for the future of our clan and the best way of achieving goals like making Intermediate more popular and the clan more respected?
A) Lots of members, who cares about the quality
B) Few high quality members

Option B) won the poll. Now try to guess for which option I voted and you will probably be wrong.
I am many bad things, but I like to be consistent and think that putting aside your personal preferences and work for the common benefit is the right thing to do. So that is what I (and other members) did and still try to do, even though it was and still is a really hard job to try and keep up to what clan members dreamed about back then. Time showed we did the right thing, since the popularity and respect towards this scheme increased a lot thanks to the team-work of this clan (team-work that for sure wouldn't have been as good as it was without the pressure of the "few high quality members" policy).
It's worth to clarify that we kind of failed to implement the "few high quality members" policy to it's full extent because it is really hard to expel someone from the clan.

Apart from that, Kayz you are only telling half the truth: you didn't mention how much I fought for you against SirGorash and other clan members that wanted you out the first time nor how much I fought for you to get you back in the clan. Also you didn't mention how many times you told me that you would do things in the right way after that first expulsion, but in the end you just did the exact same thing again.

I hope I've clarified your doubts about when and why members got kicked; highlighted the fact that it wasn't something often, easy, fast and made by one person; stressed that Kayz got booted twice; and added my personal view about my role as a member of this clan.
Joschi

Post by Joschi »

I hope you will get some more opinions of other NNN Clan members, because this issue affects each NNN'er.

At first I dont see a reason why you want to rejoin our clan. You was two times part of this Clan and both times you didn't toke care of your duties as a member, thought I dont know story behind this story...

For my person I can't take a personal decision because I don't know you as Clan member, just as friendly and always respectful Wormer. If you disappointed some NNN'ers during your membership its really hard to ask them to take you back in Clan.
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Post by Koras »

If U want rejoin to clan we can discuss about it at our private forum.
Anyway as a ex NNN member U should know how joining teh clan works:people invite You :)
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Kayz
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Post by Kayz »

I know.
[FaD] im pro jumper
[lNNNxDario] i see
Antares
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Post by Antares »

I don't think people can change... and this is a conclusion sustained by my few years of practice as psychologist, both clinical and organizational (work psychology).

However it all depends on the context, so i will give Kayz a credit for this although nice would have been, as Daz sayed, to at least announce via forum. Me and Kayz had an argument regarding his thread on forum that was erased but we sort it out and i must say i consider him (since he began to be activ again) a pretty close member to NNN comunity, not only to NNNL.

Therefore i would give him a last, third chance ... but i must say i don't know very good the context of his latest bann so i really cannot decide in a objective manner.
Even my clock at morning sounds ''tac-tic'' instead of ''tic-tac''.
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Post by khamski »

Nice one, Dario! :D
Very good speech
That words made me re-think some thing (verse! add me some league points)

I agree we all have responsibilities here... this is not all fun

:idea: About Kayz:
I don't know the story of his previous bans.
He is a nice guy and fast progressing wormer.
What i didn't like is his reaction on Dario's words.
He didn't clearly see what Daz mean and this is a bad start for re-re-regaining his clan membership.

on CWT everybody made me evil too for "verbal attacks" on people who thought that being polite and respectful to other people work is an "exaggeration". It's not. It's just keeping promises.
Signing to a tourney is a promise: "I won't fuck you up guys. I will play this till the end without breaking deadlines"
Becoming a clan member is a promise: "I won't fuck you up guys. I will be a good clanmate and have a thought about clan in my mind constantly"

And Kayz.. mate... Don't answer so fast please... Ididn't finish polishing my message yet! :P
Last edited by khamski on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kayz
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Post by Kayz »

I was banned before because I disappeared without telling anybody of you and I didn't show up in AG or board for a half year.

I understand the banning of course, but I explained that I had many problems in this time.

Khamski, you say, that I don't clearly see what Dario means, but that's not true. I understand his point of view and his reaction, but I want you to understand that caused by these problems I just forgot to look what's going on here in the clan. I didn't even open any emails, so I didn't see SirGorash's sending.

And Dario still stays I only care about my clanmembership. And I still say that's not true..
[FaD] im pro jumper
[lNNNxDario] i see
khamski
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Post by khamski »

ok then apologize for that and don't expect a thing.
Play league, stay friendly, take kitties from the trees.
And who knows maybe someday you will be invited back :)
It happens.
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Kayz
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Post by Kayz »

I'm not sure if i didn't apologize before, but yes big sorry for my past behaviour. :( I don't expect to get invited again in the next days of course, I was just a bit wondering about the whole thing itself.

Thanks for your opinions, mates, especially Dario's, which made me think a lot.
[FaD] im pro jumper
[lNNNxDario] i see
WorldMaster
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Post by WorldMaster »

Hey I am sorry for my absence too :P

Ok it's not for loughing, I delite my smile. I am 1 month absent from all things happening in the clan and league. And must say from all other things too (girlfriend, friends...). 1st my lap-top get infected by virus and wasn't able to play worms... was too nervous cause of that, and asked for the help of a friend of mine to fix it. Maybe the virus , maybe the too slow net in last months.
But than my ant, who I have been leaving together with in same house for years, since I was 15 maybe... get cancer :( and now I am spending most of the days with her (all the free time).
+got prepareing (practise) job at 2 places, now I am learning stuff, and will soon work for payment, not just practising, day/night (work at oil company at day, and comment NBA playoffs 2 times a week at nights).
Preatty busy a? But still visited the forum few times.

I have the feeling that I would kill for playing a round. And kick all ya asses friends... but am affraid that this stances will last a little more, till the nba playoffs ends.

I don't really know of the Kayz's absence in the past but if he proves that he will never do that again (not just with words), than I think that eevrybody will give him the 3rd chanse some day...
All of us see him active in league, active in forum conversations, friendly with all, throving ideas for many stuff for worms and clan stuff, but that have to last more in my opinion, so everybody can be sure it's not just for the tag, than for clearly understanding that he belongs here (meaning would do many things for the community and get many from it too).
I see & understand this game, not like playing worms, than like playing the player!
Dario
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Post by Dario »

Ew, sometimes life just sucks. Hopefully you will find some free time soon :)
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Post by Koras »

and comment NBA playoffs 2 times a week at nights
go MAGIC go!!!
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Post by Antares »

Kayz in NNN ... 1 vote xD
Even my clock at morning sounds ''tac-tic'' instead of ''tic-tac''.
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