Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

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Antares
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Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Antares »

I thought we can use this topic to chat about SW. Particullary i wanted to see your oppinions about using flame thrower as SW, and that because we have a player/newcomer in NNNL who uses it. :shock: ... i mean Achilles of course.

And he is one of the best newcomers, with great results in NNNL till now...
Even my clock at morning sounds ''tac-tic'' instead of ''tic-tac''.
khamski
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Post by khamski »

A heel les

i suspect flamethower is his "heel" ;)

i didn't play vs him though
He won WM and it means something

antiofftopic:

I didn't ever use flamer as an SW. But after this thread i'll train it a bit. Who knows maybe it ghas some hidden "trick" posibilities like effective massive plopping in combo with lg or something like that
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Kayz
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Post by Kayz »

Well he's not for long in the league. I didn't play him yet, but I saw some replays.
Flamethrower is a good weapon, but I think you can kill more worms with cows or hhg. Flamethrower is only useful, when you got piles of 2-3 worms, and then the chance is big, that they fly away. (Depends on pile hole)

Imho the flames are too hard to control to gain massive plops and stuff. But if you practise this, it could be a very nice rival to cows and hhg.
Dario
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Post by Dario »

I am still gathering data about it to be able to make objective statements, but this is more or less what I think will be the results:

One aspect of the special weapons (dunno why we call them special, they are team weapons) that can be more or less easily compared is their ability to let you save turns. If we define a standard turn as 50 damage, then causing over 100 is like making two turns in one, over 150 is 3 turns in one (as long as it is 100+50 and not 75+75, because those two worms are easy to split and then you still need 2 more turns to kill both of them).

Flame Thrower
Like in 99% of the rounds you will get to cause 100 damage, but you will rarely ever cause more than that. Even if you have two worms piled in what seems to be a perfect fire pit it gets hard to make 200 damage, because just like with petrol one worm will be turning off the flames that would otherwise hurt the other one.
So for the flamethrower you get the easiest weapon to cause 100 damage, but the chances of getting anything significantly better than that are really low. Be realistic, if you cause 100 to one worm and like 30 to the other one, the chances of you killing that worm with 70hp in only one more turn are very low, since sheep and dyna most times have a better use, or you need sheep/dyna to kill other worms that have more than 50hp because you missed a shotgun, made a pile that didn't work or simply got the chance to hurt that worm while killing another one.

Mad Cows
It is also very easy to cause 100 damage in one turn with cows, even if you hit two different worms, probably not as easy as with flame thrower but with cows there is a significant chance of being able to cause over 150 damage and even more. Moreover, even if you don't get to cause 100 damage in one turn, cows give you two extra weapons that can kill a worm with over 50hp in one turn, which increases the effectiveness of sheep and dyna (a not so good pile where you hurt one worm for 70 and another worm for 40 is good enough, since you can easily kill the 60hp worm with a cow if you don't find a better use for them).
So for Mad Cows you get a lower chance of causing 100 damage, but considerably higher chances of causing a lot more, plus the ability to use them as regular individual big explosions.

Holy Hand Grenade
From these 3 weapons, this is the one that has the larger proportion of rounds in which you won't find any good use for it, not even 100 damage, but it is also the one that (if you get to know the weapon well enough) will let you cause the highest damage in some occasions. 200 damage plus an extra damage to another worm that was close is nothing strange, and also lets you easily kill a worm that was slightly hurt in another turn (even if you ploped a worm with bow and hit for 15 damage another worm you already ensured you will make two turns in one with the HHG).
So HHG has the highest chance of being useless in one round, but also gets you to cause the most damage when you have the chance.

Therefore, considering only the damage that can be caused, flame thrower is the safest choice, but also the weakest one, cows are in the middle and hhg is the riskiest choice but also the one that can cause more damage.

A lot of other things can be analysed about the team weapons, but... I have to go ^^.

Edit:
The Super Weapons are the really super ones, like concrete donkey, mike's carpet bomb, ming vase and others.
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MrTPenguin
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Post by MrTPenguin »

Of the 8, I've had phases of using all three except the Old Woman, the Sheep Launcher, and the Moles. I'm currently using the Flamethrower, basically for the reasons given by Dario.

Regarding the Super Sheep, I've long said that it's a weapon that can make or break a round near the end. The ability to seek out an exposed (or nearly exposed) worm anywhere in the map is very useful. The problem, of course, besides the delay, is that the "big SS turn" has a lot of pressure on it, which in an official game could be too much.

I'd rank the Pigeons as #5, simply because they represent two 50+ damage turns.
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MrTPenguin
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by MrTPenguin »

I've been wondering something about the Super Sheep. What happens if, in a Full-Wormage-like game, you collect an Aqua Sheep in a crate, at a time when you've already got a Super Sheep in your inventory? Does the Super Sheep get upgraded?

(On another note, I'm using the pigeons as my special weapon now.)
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Wriggler
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Wriggler »

Why would the super sheep get upgraded? They are separate weapons; you get both, right?


One comment on Dario's (otherwise excellent) post. He is discussing damage only; it is great to cause 150+ damage, but even nicer to plop three or four worms!. So the hole-size created is very relevant in evaluating special weapons, since plopping several worms can be done with minimal damage. Flamethower sucks at making holes. Holy makes the largest hole. Cows two offset holes, Pigeons, two separate holes. I think Holy is first in the hole-department, and cows a close second, but it is more difficult to predict plopping with cows than holy.
wriggle intransitive verb: to move the body or a bodily part to and fro with short writhing motions like a worm
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Koras »

but it is more difficult to predict plopping with cows than holy.
why?
because cows 'walk'?^^

good point TPen ss and aqua occupy same inventory blank :)
upgrade would sux becuse I prefer 2 ss then 1 aqua :!:
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Wriggler
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Wriggler »

because cows walk, because there are two separate explosions, and because cows don't hit fast-moving worms, all of which make it harder to predict than holy, in my opinion. I still think they are about equal overall.
wriggle intransitive verb: to move the body or a bodily part to and fro with short writhing motions like a worm
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MrTPenguin
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by MrTPenguin »

Here's an annoying thing, which some of you will be aware of.

If you have special weapon X, which has a delay, and you get an X-crate while your original X is inaccessible, the X from the crate is also inaccessible! :evil:

It would be nice if this could be fixed for the next patch (by thinking of the special weapons are being in a queue, with crate-added ones having no delay and the original(s) retaining their delay).
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girodiwino
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by girodiwino »

I used the FT when i realized that SS in multiplayer games was barely useless (with more than 2 players in game the match seldom ends after the 5th turn) except in 1vs1 confrontationa; in addition SS suffers handicap in caverns and can be useless if the worms are hidden well, mostly she will help you opening a way to attack later, but it means that a blocked worm can attack too. The flamethrower on the other hand gives you the advantage of a massive damage with a good precision or some plopping in the second turn (and can move an enemy worm in a disadvantaged position) but sometimes the damage fails and you give 60 damage so isn't trustworthy.

I actually didn't find my team weapon because i find very difficult the balance between some factors:
1- turn the weapon becomes available
2- precision
3- damage capacity
4- probability of weapon effectiveness
5- tactical advantage that you can gain from the weapon
6- probability of self-ingiury
addendum
7- ammo

at this moment i use mad cows because they have a good balance between 1-2-3-4-7 but tactically they can suck since sometimes they simply don't blow when touching the worm and the lack of fuse can make them hurt you with other worms.
Someone can give me some advice? i'd like to use HHG, because it is strong in 2-3-4-5 and acceptable in 6 but has a very great handicap derived form the delay that can make unusable.
i'm asking advice also because i think that first strike with team weapon can change the balance of the match, what do you think about the first strike theory?

byez and thanks!
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Kayz
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Kayz »

HHG is for the so-called "second part" of the match, for some big attack to get back into advantage. Cows are dedicated directly for the beginning, when the enemy didn't move many worms and hid them well. If you keep the cows too long, sometimes they are useful, to kill the last 100 hp worm, but sometimes you just finish the round with still having the cows in the pocket.

The problem you mentioned with the cows walking over the worms: Cows need practice (as almost every super weapon), you must check the bouncing, the explosion point, calculate the probable damage and the way they walk etc.
HHG is not easy to use also, of course you can just do a big hole and plop some worms easily, but the most effective moves with hhg are the most precise ones, where you put a worm on a mine, or plop them with a bounce. (Dario made some very good moves with HHG in a package of nice moves, maybe you will check it).

I guess only time will tell, which super weapon is the best for you, but I'd not advise to take any other super weapon than cows, HHG, flamethrower or pigeons. The supersheep can be a good surprise for a cave, when you fly around the indestructable border, but pigeons can do that, too, don't have this big delay, and furthermore you get 2 of them.
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girodiwino
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by girodiwino »

Kayz wrote:HHG is for the so-called "second part" of the match, for some big attack to get back into advantage. Cows are dedicated directly for the beginning, when the enemy didn't move many worms and hid them well. If you keep the cows too long, sometimes they are useful, to kill the last 100 hp worm, but sometimes you just finish the round with still having the cows in the pocket.

The problem you mentioned with the cows walking over the worms: Cows need practice (as almost every super weapon), you must check the bouncing, the explosion point, calculate the probable damage and the way they walk etc.
HHG is not easy to use also, of course you can just do a big hole and plop some worms easily, but the most effective moves with hhg are the most precise ones, where you put a worm on a mine, or plop them with a bounce. (Dario made some very good moves with HHG in a package of nice moves, maybe you will check it).

I guess only time will tell, which super weapon is the best for you, but I'd not advise to take any other super weapon than cows, HHG, flamethrower or pigeons. The supersheep can be a good surprise for a cave, when you fly around the indestructable border, but pigeons can do that, too, don't have this big delay, and furthermore you get 2 of them.
isn't flying over the indestructible roof a bit unfair? (sometimes i do it, but only vs cpu for 2 reasons: training, the cpu deserves it 8) )
however, can you tell me where i can check dario's moves with HHG? maybe i can train with it for a while...
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Joschi »

Here you can find the HHG moves made by Dario (he has collected some moves in variety packs):
http://nnnclan.freeforums.org/nice-moves-t22.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

shooting over the indestructable roof isn't unfair. It's a legitim way to decide a round in SD. Be prepared in your league games, often, when the game reaches SD, some people goes to one of the top corners and prepare a homming missile shot to win the round.
Lansmander
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Re: Special Weapons (Team Weapons)

Post by Lansmander »

Amazing flamer move :shock:
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